Social Member or not?

[dnkldorf]

Initial appearance, you were done wrong. BUT, we do not have all the facts, and the rules are part of it. We cannot stand in as a Jury on this matter. This should have been handled under due process In Your Post, and if not afforded, Officers could have been recommended for Article 9 Proceedings.

I am not looking for anywhere here to be a jury. I am only asking simple questions, that can not seem to be answered without irrelevant information being throw in.

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[Chris Weber 5468]

Fact 1; National VFW Does Not Recognize Social / Associate Members. Only Qualified Members accepted By By Laws and its Authorized Ladies and Mens Auxiliaries.

Fact 2; National only gives enough regulations to keep the Post assets under VFW Local Control With certain limitations\. Aside from that, they are not in the 'Bar' business.

Fact 3; You have not shared your Post Regs so we can see how they are set up. This would be highly relevant in this case.

Fact 4; You are no longer in that Post. (By your account) Except by your say, we have nothing tangible to work with.

Did you read my last posting? I was clear that the Association answers to the Post. Apparently, the Post Commander was also running the Home Association which would be inappropriate. (Or has enough influence)

So, we only have the National By Laws to work with, and by default of those By Laws, they will over ride any other level. To include Post and Canteen Rules.

Question, Why did you not document the entire history of the events and bring your case up under Post Good of the Order as your Right as a Member. Even under Suspension, they do not have the right to prevent your attendance in a Post meeting. . You probably had time in the initial stages to do something with it. Far easier to document while in progress as opposed to backwards engineer the files. A railroad attempt was made on me at District Level before and I well armed myself with the Facts, and the By Laws, and presented my case in a District Meeting. I won my case and had great success in that District afterwards.(This happened At District Level)

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[dnkldorf]

Fact 1; National VFW Does Not Recognize Social / Associate Members. Only Qualified Members accepted By By Laws and its Authorized Ladies and Mens Auxiliaries.

Just so we're all on the same boat here, YOU believe every post across the nation who has a canteen/home/whatever they call it, associations that allow ANYONE who does not qualify under the National VFW membership guidelines, are breaking the rules, and should be shut down.

This is what you are saying, correct?

I just find it impossible that this is true, considering how many posts I've visited, and how many social members there are , and how the social members keep the posts afloat financially.

Fact 2; National only gives enough regulations to keep the Post assets under VFW Local Control With certain limitations\. Aside from that, they are not in the 'Bar' business.

They call it fundraising I believe, not a bar business.

Fact 3; You have not shared your Post Regs so we can see how they are set up. This would be highly relevant in this case.

They have been requested, and all requests have been denied by State...ooops Department Qtrmstr.

Fact 4; You are no longer in that Post. (By your account) Except by your say, we have nothing tangible to work with.

After being told/ordered and wished 3 times, to leave because your not welcome anymore, for no reason, I had to transfer. Once you transfer, you have no appeal rights to action taken by previous post. From Dept Qtrmstr.

Did you read my last posting? I was clear that the Association answers to the Post. Apparently, the Post Commander was also running the Home Association which would be inappropriate. (Or has enough influence)

Exactly, old commander moved to Distrcit Adjutant, and SR vice became commander. His first order was to kick me out with no due process, in front of a canteen full of people. Home Association management is exactly the same as post management, with NO separation in leadership or authority.

So, we only have the National By Laws to work with, and by default of those By Laws, they will over ride any other level. To include Post and Canteen Rules.

See, now your thinking. The Home Association at a post CAN NOT violate the National by-laws or the Post by-laws,  in respect to ACTIVE VFW Lifetime Members, and their certain rights and privileges, WITHOUT due process.

Question, Why did you not document the entire history of the events and bring your case up under Post Good of the Order as your Right as a Member.

Was kicked out for no reason, with witnesses testimony, for no reason. Walked in one day, after no patronizing the post for over 6 months. Sat down, and was told to leave immediately, do not ever come back, you are no longer welcome here anymore. We wish you would just transfer to another post.
Went to the district meeting that following wednesday night, brought up the illegal termination at the meeting, under good of the order, and the Commander stood up and slammed me, makig up lie after lie in front; of 50+ commanders, SR, JR, and even other district commanders in attendance. The assault went on for about 5 minutes, with known lie after lie being told by him. The distrcit commander did nothing to stop the assault and let it continue. It was horrific, the lies that were told about me. It's all on tape. The Adjutant voice records every meeting. I transferred about 2 weeks later, and about a month after that, I received a letter telling me my Social membership was terminated.

Even under Suspension, they do not have the right to prevent your attendance in a Post meeting. .

No, but when your told in the letter, you are not allowed on the property, not allowed to visit the canteen area, not allowed to play pool, horseshoes, or even be on the property anymore and you are only allowed to be there on the last Thursday of every month, only for meetings, and you can not use the front door. You must use the side door, that no-one ever uses, and it reamains locked. They wanted me to stand out in the rain, until the meeting began, and only then would they open the door for me. I was not allowed to socialize with anyone there anymore.
Tell me, would you stay at the post as a member, or would you transfer like ordered?

You probably had time in the initial stages to do something with it. Far easier to document while in progress as opposed to backwards engineer the files. A railroad attempt was made on me at District Level before and I well armed myself with the Facts, and the By Laws, and presented my case in a District Meeting. I won my case and had great success in that District afterwards.(This happened At District Level)

After his attack that night, even the District commander won't talk to me, nor would he return calls or letters requesting guidance.

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[Chris Weber 5468]

A Post that hostile, I would probably leave as well.

Somewhere, there was a catalysis that started this entire thread. I assume you started to ask questions as to how the Post was operating. This would have threatened their little kingdom.

Perhaps this thread will be of value to others to show the need of proper knowledge of By Laws and Rules. Also, the need of Documentation and Diplomacy when the time arises.

From information provided, there seems to be at least 4 people involved in a conspiracy that would fall within the realms of Article 9. But it takes SOLID Documentation and evidence. 

Now the Question comes up, What are you going to do? I would hope the you learn from this the need to adhere to the VFW By Laws and learn their application. This would serve you and the Post you are with now. 

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[dnkldorf]

A Post that hostile, I would probably leave as well.

Would that be considered a "reasonable" voluntary transfer, or would a "reasonable" person view that as a forced transfer. Keywords are "reasonable"

Somewhere, there was a catalysis that started this entire thread. I assume you started to ask questions as to how the Post was operating. This would have threatened their little kingdom.

The catalyst was a civil court hearing, and I can't dispose any more info than that, to respect the VFW and the defendant(s).

Perhaps this thread will be of value to others to show the need of proper knowledge of By Laws and Rules. Also, the need of Documentation and Diplomacy when the time arises.

I can't emphasize enough the thread I started on "Fudiciary Responsibilty".
 

From information provided, there seems to be at least 4 people involved in a conspiracy that would fall within the realms of Article 9. But it takes SOLID Documentation and evidence.

Not really, there are 2 involved. The other board members I think were lied to, and they just went along with it, NOT really knowing the truth, and NOT taking any fiduciary action, that a reasonable person, in the same situation, acting in the same capacity, would of done.

Now the Question comes up, What are you going to do? I would hope the you learn from this the need to adhere to the VFW By Laws and learn their application. This would serve you and the Post you are with now.

You're one of the Administrators here. If I posted anything that was not adhering to the VFW guidlines, you folks here would inform me of such, and tell me so.

I think you know what I am doing. The VFW didn't help, but civil courts will.

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[Chris Weber 5468]

By the Catalysis, I meant what brought up the initial Dispute that initiated the start of the entire situation. Something before the Civil Action. (With current action being taken, do not respond, Posted here for clarification.)

I would call it a transfer under duress. Note, with the Member Declaration required for Transfers, beings the Old Post did not resist the Transfer, implies there is no pending litigation against you.

Highly support the Fiduciary Responsibility Issue. We must all be united on this.

We will leave pending legal issues alone, until the process  is concluded. Would like to learn the ultimate outcome.

As an Administrator, I found your topic of extreme value for other Comrades who may need to know what to look for. As with all hard issues, unfortunately, someone pays the price for others to learn. Your topic is one of the reasons this service was instituted, so others can learn. I thank you for your sacrifice. I do wish you well in your new Post.

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[Chris Weber 5468]

From National General Orders Number 2, 2012 - 2013 Series;
2. The National By-Laws provide for only one type of membership: active membership. There are no provisions in the National By-Laws, nor is there any authority or justification for issuance of Club Membership cards, Associate Member cards, Honorary Membership cards, Courtesy Membership cards or any other special type of cards. Any Post issuing such unauthorized cards, or conducting club operations open to the general public, endangers its standing with the Internal Revenue Service as a non-profit organization. Officers signing outlaw cards admitting nonmembers to VFW premises are subject to disciplinary action. National and Department officers cannot defend practices that conflict with VFW By-Laws or procedures.

Spells it out Clear as a Bell.

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[dnkldorf]

Spells it out Clear as a Bell.

No Chris, you're missing something. The VFW allows posts to create and run sub-charitable organizations. Under this sub-organization, the SU can create it's own "defined membership" and, or rules and by-laws. No-one can be a social member of the VFW, but one can be a social member of VFW Post 1234's Home association charitable organization.

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[DoggyDaddy]

Dnkldorf said" No Chris, you're missing something. The VFW allows posts to create and run sub-charitable organizations. Under this sub-organization, the SU can create it's own "defined membership" and, or rules and by-laws. No-one can be a social member of the VFW, but one can be a social member of VFW Post 1234's Home association charitable organization."

dnkldorf, it's clear as mud to me.     Can you site your VFW source/authority for this as I know of None.

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[dnkldorf]

  dnkldorf, it's clear as mud to me.     Can you site your VFW source/authority for this as I know of None.

Please read Sec 708 and 709.

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[Chris Weber 5468]

No where in the By Laws and Manual of Procedure Section 708 and 709 does it indicate that the Post Created Entities may have Social Members. It does state that such entities must be within the guidance of the By Laws.
From the By Laws Sec 708;
Posts, Districts, and Departments of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the
United States shall be incorporated within the state where they are located as prescribed
in the Manual of Procedure.
No unit chartered by the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States, and
no activities, clubrooms, holding companies or units sponsored or conducted or
operated by, for or in behalf of any such chartered unit, shall separately from the
Post, incorporate under the laws of the state in which it is located for any purposes
whatsoever unless the Articles of Incorporation of such chartered unit and any
incorporated activities, clubrooms, holding companies or units sponsored, conducted
or operated by, for or in its behalf shall include those provisions specified
in the Manual of Procedure. Chartered units failing to comply with the provisions of
this Section or failing to cause compliance by activities, clubrooms, holding companies
or units sponsored, conducted or operated by, for or on behalf of such
chartered unit shall be subject to suspension or revocation of charter.
From the Manual of Procedure, Sec 709;
Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States is a federally chartered membership
corporation created by an Act of Congress. In accordance with that legislation, Veterans
of Foreign Wars of the United States has issued charters to the Ladies Auxiliary,
Departments and other units, including Posts. Pursuant to their charters, those units are
bound to pursue the purposes set forth in the Congressional Charter and abide by the
Charter, By-Laws, Manual of Procedure and the laws and usages of the Veterans of
Foreign Wars of the United States. However, each organization is a separate unincorporated association or corporation under the laws of the jurisdiction in which each is located.
The Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States does not own an interest in any
clubroom, canteen, facility or any fund-raising activity operated by any such chartered
unit, nor are clubrooms, canteens, facilities or other fund-raising activities operated for or
on behalf of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States. Veterans of Foreign Wars
of the United States does not derive any profit from such facilities or activities. Clubrooms,
canteens, facilities and other fund-raising activities of chartered units are carried on by
such units in furtherance of the fraternal, patriotic, historical, charitable and educational
purposes set forth by Congress.

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[marlinnotafish]

http://www.vfwpahq.org/

From the District/Post Tools drop down menu click on Forms & Facts

Click on Post Info.  Scroll down a bit and you will see the link to model Home Association By-Laws.  Right below that are the model Post By-Laws.  In Article 6, Section 3 it outlines House Committee procedures.

Article 7 outlines CONTROL OF SUBSIDIARY UNITS.

These two documents will give you a better understanding of the difference between the Post and the Home Association.

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[BigBooper]

No one is payed to mop the floors or dump the trash. Truely don't understand the attitude of commardes,  they don't have to  bend a elbolw.

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[Loadtoad]

It is my understanding that...

any by-law that is going to be adopted by a post must be passed on thru the Department and National prior to being adopted.  If they are not in violation of any other by-laws, National will return to the post, thru the Department, a stamped copy of proposed by-laws as approved.  Any organization not having by-laws stamped approved by national are not legitamate.

Now, for all the previously mentioned reasons, the Department and National would never approve a posts by-laws that contained provisions for "Social Memeberships".  Easiest way to  fight this is to have someone provide a copy of the Post by-laws that have been signed of by National.  If they can't be produced, then they can easily be argured that they are not legitamate.

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[dnkldorf]

The Dept sent down the Dept internal affairs officer to investigate. He noted in his report:

" I asked to see the Post and Home Association by-laws and they were not sent in or approved by the State Headquarters. I asked why they haven't, that the State Headquarters would provide them with the proper forms and they said they have them and have to send them in."

Sounds to me like their Home Asocciation was never approved, nor do I see a national or Dept stamp or signature anywhere on the copy of the Home Assoc by-laws I have.

What would you do next?

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