Social Member or not?

[DoggyDaddy]

I just finished reading all the reply's from today and now my head hurts.   

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

Is this referring to a Qualified VFW Life Member, or an associate life member?

Where did you find this term "associate life member"?

Where did it come from?

• Tweet

[Chris Weber 5468]

I was seeking clarity for this;

A card carrying lifetime member of this post has what, an active membership who is given certain rights and privileges spelled out in the VFW MOP and By-laws, or do they have a social membership whose certain rights and privileges can be taken away at any time, for any reason?

The State told me I am a social member, and have no rights or privileges to this post.

Not really clear what type of card.

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

A VFW Post is established as a tax exempt (non-profit) 501(c)(19) Veterans Organization in a certain state, say Pennsylvania.  This VFW Post starts a separate tax exempt (non-profit) corporation as a 501(c)(7) social club for its canteen.

The only ones that can belong to the 501(c)(19) organization are bona fide VFW members.  The articles of incorporation and by-laws of the 501(c)(7) allow anyone to join by paying their dues.  The by-laws of the social club might state members of the VFW Post are automatically members and no further dues are required.  Everyone else pays dues.  Those that pay dues are the ones known as social members of the Home Association, but not social members of the VFW Post.

Therefore, you have VFW Post XXXX, the 501(c)(19), and you have VFW Post XXXX Home Association, the 501(c)(7).  This is very common is Pennsylvania and is perfectly legal.  I believe, but don’t quote me, the State of Michigan also allows Home Associations.  There might be other states that allow this but I don’t know since I have led a sheltered life.  Some other states might not allow this per their requirements for a liquor license.

Great Info. Sorry if I seem dense. It takes me a couple times reading things to comprehend the info, so if you feel you have to explain things 2 or 3 times, I'm sorry.

That is why I posted and asked if this was a VFW problem or a home association problem.  The two are separate animals.

The problem is, no-one has given an answer. By definition of the by laws posted above, does  a Qualified Lifetime VFW Member, have a active membership or social membership at the post?

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

Not really clear what type of card.

Really?

How many different types of cards are there?

• Tweet

[Chris Weber 5468]

Is he a Bon-a-fide VFW Life Member or a Civilian with a Life Member Associate Card. No where in this thread is this Member identified as a VFW Member. This would have all the difference as to the bottom question as to what rights he has.

Also, need to know the EXACT WORDING of this Home Association By Laws regarding Discipline and Appeals. Until known, the issue is mute as the National By Laws are clear.

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

Is he a Bon-a-fide VFW Life Member or a Civilian with a Life Member Associate Card. No where in this thread is this Member identified as a VFW Member. This would have all the difference as to the bottom question as to what rights he has.

Bon-A-fide LifeTime, Qualified Lifetime, a friking veteran with an honorable discharge, who meets every requirement known to man kind, as spelled out in the podium edition of the MOP and by-laws.
 I can't be any clearer on this.

Also, need to know the EXACT WORDING of this Home Association By Laws regarding Discipline and Appeals. Until known, the issue is mute as the National By Laws are clear.

First we'll stick with question on the table. Social or Active membership as defined.

• Tweet

[Chris Weber 5468]

As Defined, There Is No Such Thing As An Associate or Social Member.
Next Part, From the 2012 -13 Commanders Manual (pages 169-170) issued from National;
The House Committee functions only in a Post which operates a Post Home or Club. This committee may be selected in anyway the Post determines but it is generally considered advisable that it be elected by the Post membership, with the members serving staggered terms, on the order of Post Trustees. This lessens the possibility of one certain group gaining and retaining control of the Club.
The duties of the House Committee should be laid out in the Post By-Laws and/or Club regulations so there is no misunderstanding of their powers and responsibilities. The purpose of the committee is to act on behalf of the Post in making certain that the club is run in an efficient, reputable and legal manner and that the rules of the Veterans of Foreign Wars are adhered to.
It is the general procedure for the House Committee to hire all employees, set their salaries, and issue necessary instructions and orders to the Club Manager. The committee usually meets at least once a month for the purpose
of discussing problems, taking inventory, studying financial reports, and in general, acting as an advisory, supervisory and disciplinary board. No member of the House Committee should ever be permitted to act as Club Manager or as a paid employee of the Club.
The House Committee is generally given authority to suspend the Club privileges of any member and to establish and enforce, through the Club Manager, rules of decorum and behavior. They usually, also, have the authority to suspend or discharge the Club Manager or any employee for good and sufficient cause. In any disciplinary action, discharge or suspension, there should be provision for an appeal to the Post meeting.
The committee cannot make or enforce any rules contrary to the rules of the Department, public law, or the lawful instructions of the Post. If it is elected from the Post floor, the committee is directly responsible to the Post
floor and makes its reports to the Post at meetings. Refusal to comply with the rules and instructions of the Post is grounds for removal of any or all members of the House Committee.

Now, in regards to the main question, How Does That Post Club Rules Read. No Answer Can Be Given Wthout All The Details!

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

As Defined, There Is No Such Thing As An Associate or Social Member.

Either you're really being stubborn, or you're confusing yourself at every turn.

YOU said their was an Associate Lifetime membership, and now you say their is no such thing?

I just gave you the exact definitions of active members and social members as defined in the VFW Home association by-laws and asked one question.

Is a Lifetime, eligible, bon-a-fide, certified, and whatever else you want to call a, card carrying VFW Lifetime member of that post, a social or actvice membership.

Take one step at a time.......

• Tweet

[Chris Weber 5468]

YOU said their was an Associate Lifetime membership, and now you say their is no such thing?

That comment was made in order to gain clarification due to earlier posts stating;

A card carrying lifetime member of this post has what, an active membership who is given certain rights and privileges spelled out in the VFW MOP and By-laws, or do they have a social membership whose certain rights and privileges can be taken away at any time, for any reason?

The State told me I am a social member, and have no rights or privileges to this post.

Associate / Social; makes no difference until I see where National makes them legal.
Beings you states you are a VFW Life Member, you do have rights as a Post member and as such, you have the Right of Appeal to the Post membership in a Grievance.

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

Beings you states you are a VFW Life Member, .

Finally...

Now, do I have a social membership, or an active membership at this post/home association?

• Tweet

[Chris Weber 5468]

If you were not handed any Article 9 Proceedings to terminate your membership or place you under Suspension, you should be a Member in full standing at your Post.
Now, if the Canteen / Club Manager suspended your privileges, there should be an Appeal Process in your Club / Canteen Regulations and Rules. Your status with this cannot be determined on this forum without first reading your Post By Laws and Club / Canteen Rules and any determinations made against you. We cannot advise your steps without YOUR Post By Laws and Club / Canteen Rules.
IF no action was taken against you, AS A POST MEMBER, you should have full access.
If Action against you From the Canteen, it would be a fully in the Post Home as far as the Appeal Process goes as per your Post and Canteen / Club Rules go.
As far as being a Social Member in that establishment, you have not provided your rules that indicate that existence. And at that, there is no such provision in the National By Laws for a Social Member.

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

Chris, If I was to ask you if one apple plus one apple equals two apples, would you ask me whether these apples are verified by the FDA, whether these apples are Granny Smith or macintosh, or whether we are talking about fruit or computers?

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

If you were not handed any Article 9 Proceedings to terminate your membership or place you under Suspension, you should be a Member in full standing at your Post.
Now, if the Canteen / Club Manager suspended your privileges, there should be an Appeal Process in your Club / Canteen Regulations and Rules. Your status with this cannot be determined on this forum without first reading your Post By Laws and Club / Canteen Rules and any determinations made against you. We cannot advise your steps without YOUR Post By Laws and Club / Canteen Rules.
IF no action was taken against you, AS A POST MEMBER, you should have full access.
If Action against you From the Canteen, it would be a fully in the Post Home as far as the Appeal Process goes as per your Post and Canteen / Club Rules go.
As far as being a Social Member in that establishment, you have not provided your rules that indicate that existence. And at that, there is no such provision in the National By Laws for a Social Member.

Another simple question, bound to get complicated, but here goes.

Can a Home Association deny you rights and privileges bestowed upon you by the  VFW Post that manages it?
If you are forced to transfer upon losing all rights and privilges to a post, can you appeal any decisions made by the post.

(the answer to the second question is no)

• Tweet

[Chris Weber 5468]

Apples to Apples, hard to say, we only have the National Variety on hand. Having your Post Regs would make for easier determination.

Refer to Post reply # 22. The House / Home / Association Committee and Chairman, Bar manager is answerable to the Post. They do not have the Power to permanently ban anyone. This requires Post Action In A Post Meeting. And Appeal Process Must Be In Writing. Again, Final opinion from this Forum is not possible without seeing Your Post Rules and Regulations.

Initial appearance, you were done wrong. BUT, we do not have all the facts, and the rules are part of it. We cannot stand in as a Jury on this matter. This should have been handled under due process In Your Post, and if not afforded, Officers could have been recommended for Article 9 Proceedings.

• Tweet