Life Member gets the boot and possibly slandered at District meeting

[C_Hunter]

The Manual of Procedure (2010 ed.) states:
“Sec. 904—Appeal.
Any member against whom Disciplinary Action is taken under this Article shall have the right to appeal such action.  The procedure for such appeals shall be as set forth in the Procedural Guide for Disciplinary Actions adopted and promulgated by the National Council of Administration.”
As of this morning, the VFW.org membership site is down for year-end maintenance.  Thus, I was unable to learn whether the NCA guide is available there.  That site should be back in operation next week (with luck).

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

What i am to appeal?

That they told a ton of lies about, both on tape and on official VFW letter head, and that he knows he knowingly made it all up, and I have proof?

First you must have an investigation, and charges filed. Then he would have a right to a hearing where he could provide witnesses.......ect.



I can't appeal, what ain't being investigated.

• Tweet

[C_Hunter]

dnkldorf, you alleged that you were subject to disciplinary action without due process.  That, in my opinion, is an appeal-able action.

• Tweet

[USAFAirdale]

@Dnkldorf

I served as a District Chief of Staff from 2005-2008 under 4 District Commanders (one deployed) and was often consulted by Comrades ‘how to proceed’.

I always maintained and carried a current copy of the VFW Podium Edition> shared it and ask them about their Post By-Laws and where applicable, their Canteen rules.

Your District Adjutant SHOULD have IMMEDIATELY informed you that this is a Post issue and needed to be resolved there.  Barring an agreed upon resolution, the issue can be forwarded to you DEPARTMENT directly.

A factual narrative statement similar to your posts here, the sworn statements and documentation along with a list of specific charges under National By-Laws, Sec. 902 should be forwarded to your Department Judge Advocate and Department Adjutant.

The list of charges would look like this (repeated for each fact:  IE: "stated to me he had a damaging video tape of my actions and later admitted the statement to be false", "stated at District meeting he had a damaging video tape of my actions and later admitted the statement to be false" and so on):

Charge (1):

 

Violation of Article IX Section 902, Subsection 2 of the National By-Laws, Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States – Disobedience or disregard of the provisions of the Congressional Charter, By-Laws, Manual of Procedure, Ritual, General Orders or Laws and usages of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States.

Specification 1

ARTICLE IX – DISCIPLINE Sec. 902 – Offense 2. Failure to fulfill the obligations taken at of application and admission or the obligation taken upon installation to any office.

In that Comrade Jones, as Post 9999 Commander, on DD MMM YY, exceeded his authority as outlined under the of the Manual of Procedure, Sec. 218 (a) (1), Commander’s duties , ejecting Comrade Dnkldorf permanently from the home Post, without bringing disciplinary charges or due process.

Charge (2):

Violation of Article IX Section 902, Subsection 4 of the National By-Laws, Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States – Disobedience or disregard of the provisions of the Congressional Charter, By-Laws, Manual of Procedure, Ritual, General Orders or Laws and usages of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States.

Specification 2:

ARTICLE IX – DISCIPLINE Sec. 902 – Offense 4. Disobedience or disregard of the provisions of the Congressional Charter, By-Laws, the Manual of Procedure, Ritual, General Orders or laws and usages of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States or any order of the Commander-in-Chief.

In that Comrade Jones, as Post 9999 Commander, on DD MMM YY, exceeded his authority as outlined under the of the Manual of Procedure, Sec. 218 (a) (1), Commander’s duties , ejecting Comrade Dnkldorf permanently from the home Post, without bringing disciplinary charges or due process.

Charge (3):

 

Violation of Article IX Section 902, Subsection 6 of the National By-Laws, Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States – Disobedience or disregard of the provisions of the Congressional Charter, By-Laws, Manual of Procedure, Ritual, General Orders or Laws and usages of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States.

Specification 3:

ARTICLE IX – DISCIPLINE Sec. 902 – Offense 6. Conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline or conduct unbecoming a member in his relations to the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States or other members.

In that Comrade Jones, as Post 9999 Commander, on DD MMM YY, exceeded his authority as outlined under the of the Manual of Procedure, Sec. 218 (a) (1), Commander’s duties , ejecting Comrade Dnkldorf permanently from the home Post, without bringing disciplinary charges or due process.

Charge (4): 

Violation of Article IX Section 902, Subsection 10 of the National By-Laws, Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States – Disobedience or disregard of the provisions of the Congressional Charter, By-Laws, Manual of Procedure, Ritual, General Orders or Laws and usages of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States.

Specification 4:

ARTICLE IX – DISCIPLINE Sec. 902 – Offense 10.  Aiding, abetting, counseling, concealing, commanding, conspiring, soliciting, procuring or causing to be done any act which, if done, would be punishable under this Article.

In that Comrade Jones, as Post 9999 Commander, on DD MMM YY, exceeded his authority as outlined under the of the Manual of Procedure, Sec. 218 (a) (1), Commander’s duties , ejecting Comrade Dnkldorf permanently from the home Post, without bringing disciplinary charges or due process.

Again, this issue is not a 'dead issue' because you changed Posts. 

Make sure you have your 'i's  and 't's crossed with sworn statement and documentation if you choose to forward to your Department by CERTIFIED, RETURN RECEIPT mail as the Post Commander can came back at you under Sec. 902 of the By-Laws for false statements.

Best of luck

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

I was close I guess. Below is a copy of the letter I sent to the National Dept, after exhausting my options at the state level.

I was just guessing on the format.




June 14, 2012


To: Kevin Jones
      Veterans of Foreign Wars
   




Subject:     Official request for investigation and appropriate charges


Dear Kevin Jones,



I would like to formally ask the National Veterans of Foreign Wars, to investigate and charge Post xxxx Commander xxxx  xxxxxxx with willfully and maliciously breaking the following offenses as listed in the VFW Manual of Procedure:

I also ask the National VFW to be the Initiating Officer for the form DA-1, and DA-2, as prescribed in the VFW Manual of Procedure, and By-Laws

Section 902- Offenses
(4) Disobedience or disregard of the provisions of the Congressional Charter, By-Laws (at all levels), Manual of Procedure, Ritual, General Orders or any other laws and usages or the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States or any order or the Commander in Chief.

Section 902- Offenses
(12) Knowingly providing false information or statements in connection with the initiation of charges against another member

VFW Post XXXX Commander xxxxxx  xxxxl, on October 16, 2011 did willfully and intentionally commit the offense 902(4), by terminating all rights and privileges,  afforded to Lifetime VFW Members, with disregard to the VFW Manual of Procedure. Commander xxxxx  xxxxl , for no reason and in front of witnesses, ordered me to leave the premises and never come back. He stated that I am no longer welcome at the post and ordered me to transfer out of the post. (signed witness statements already provided to district and state)
This action was in direct conflict of the VFW Manual of Procedure and By-laws:
Section 901- Discipline of Members
Except as otherwise provided in the Congressional Charter, these by-laws and the Manual of Procedure, no member shall be subject tot the penalties prescribed in Section 907, unless such member shall have been advised in writing of the charges against him and afforded the opportunity to request that such charges be heard at a Disciplinary Hearing as hereinafter provided. No disciplinary action may be initiated with respect to conduct that has been the subject of the previously initiated disciplinary action.

It has been stated and documented that I had not visited the post for over 6 months. I walked in the door and VFW Post xxxx Commander xxxxx ordered to me leave and never come back, and instructed patrons at the post that I am never welcome there again.
I did not say one word at the time. Previous to this date, October 16, 2011 at 2:30 PM, I have had no contact with VFW Post xxxx since March 31, 2011. I attended no monthly board meetings; I attended no post functions, and organized no horseshoe leagues and pool leagues for the post. I did not step one foot on VFW Post xxxx premises during this time.
If Commander xxxxx had reason to initiate disciplinary actions for any offenses committed by me, before this encounter on October 16, 2011, he was bound by the Manual of Procedure to initiate a incident report, and send the accuser (myself) a letter listing the charges and my rights to an hearing on the issue, before any disciplinary actions listed in Section 907 are enforced.
When asked for a reason for this action, Post xxxx Commander xxxxx stated in front of 20+ witnesses,  “ He is post commander now and can do whatever the fu** he wants” and “ he never liked me from day one”.
For no reason, other than his personal vendetta and hatred for me, did he willfully and maliciously disregard the VFW Manual of Procedure.

Commander xxxxxxxl, at a VFW District Meeting on October 19, 2011 and in a letter dated December 6, 2011, did willfully and intentionally commit the offense listed in Section 902(12), and intentionally break the Rules of Order.


Rules of Order Section 1001 (6)
No member shall in debate impeach the motives of a fellow member or treat him with disrespect. Members shall avoid personalities and unbecoming speech. Any conversation calculated to disturb a member while speaking or hinder the transaction of business, shall be deemed a violation of order, and, if continued, the offending member shall be reprimanded by the presiding officer and may be ordered to retire from the room. Failure to comply with an order to retire may subject a member to disciplinary action for conduct prejudicial to the good order and discipline. When a member is called to order for disorderly conduct or abusive language, if such conduct is not immediately stopped and an apology immediately proffered by said member, disciplinary action may be taken against such member.

Section 902- Offenses
(12) Knowingly providing false information or statements in connection with the initiation of charges against another member
On October 19 2011, at a VFW District 16 Meeting, Commander xxxxxxx, unprovoked and for no reason stood up and intentionally and maliciously lied to approximately 50 VFW Dignitaries in attendance. After an investigation into VFW POST 9788's banning of Lifetime Members without regard to the Manual of Procedure was motioned by myself and seconded by District 16’s Adjutant, Commander xxx stood up and started telling lies to everyone at attendance about me. He, for no reason, knowingly lied when he said I came into the Post on October 16 2011, and started yelling fowl language at the bar. He also lied when he told everyone that I “broadcast all over town” that I was going to take over the post and kick all the old Fogeys out”. John continued to knowingly lie to the attendees because of his personal hated of me.

He went on knowingly lying about this incident at VFW Post xxxx, and when forcibly asked to stop talking by the District Commander at the time, he couldn’t help but yell out that he “has a recording of the whole incident on tape”. He made this statement to enforce his lies he previously made to the attendees, in an attempt to personally attack my credibility within the VFW community. He committed this offense, with disregard of the Manual Of Procedure, the By-laws, and with disregard to the Civil Laws within the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
In an ongoing Civil Case against xxxx, he first said he has a tape of this incident, and was requested by my attorney to provide me with a copy of it as proof. Commander xxxxxx then replied through his attorney that he “had” the tape of the incident, but someone let it on the loop setting and it got recorded over. When pressed by my attorney for proof there are security cameras installed at Post xxxx, which captured this incident, VFW Post xxxx Commander xxxxx admitted there are no tapes of this incident. He admitted to lying to all the attendee’s that evening. May I remind you that these attendees included multiple VFW and American Legion District Commanders, multiple VFW Post Commanders, Sr and Jr Post Commanders and distinguished guests.



Section 902- Offenses
(12) Knowingly providing false information or statements in connection with the initiation of charges against another member
In a letter dated December 6, 2011 Commander xxxx  and Post xxxx sent me a certified letter stating that my social membership and all other privileges have been terminated.  They stated the reasons for this action now are because on Oct 16 2011, I entered the Post and immediately began yelling across the bar using fowl language with women present. This is knowingly false, and witnessed. I entered the Post and sat down. Without saying one word to anyone, Commander xxxxx approached me and ordered me to leave. He also ordered me to transfer to another post, as I was not welcome there anymore, and any rights I had were immediately terminated.

The letter continues to state that another reason for this discipline action being taken, was because I continually spoke about VFW subjects and issues with social members, and that I have been asked in the past to stop this practice, but I continued with this practice. Again, I have not visited the post in over 6 months, and have not attended a VFW Post meeting in years. These statements, on VFW Letterhead,  are known lies that VFW Post xxxx Commander xxxxxx  initiated because of his personal hatred and vendetta against me.

Again, this action committed by VFW Post xxxxx Commander xxxx shows his total disregard for the VFW Manual of Procedure and the By-laws and his personal attacks against me directly conflict with page 17 of the VFW Ritual Procedures as outlined in the manual.
“Commander: Comrades, we are assembled again to transact business of mutual benefit. Do Not let petty jealousness influence our deliberations. Let us uphold always the obligations of unselfish comradeship and loyalty to our Organization and to the government of the United States.”
Commander xxxxx actions are/were not in the best interest of the VFW Organization, not becoming of an Executive officer of the VFW and directly conflict with VFW Manual of Procedure and By-laws. His personal pettiness should not be tolerated, and his personal vendetta’s need to be stopped for the good of the organization.
I ask that Commander xxxxxx be charged with the above offenses and prescribed in the Manual. I ask that all steps including initiation of an incident report be started, and if found guilty of the above charges, Commander xxxxxxl be relinquished of his command and be ordered to never again be allowed to hold any position within the VFW ranks.

I also request that all my rights and privileges terminated by VFW Post Commander xxxxx fraudulent actions be re-instated immediately and without prejudice.



Commander XXXXXXXX lies at the District Meeting were captured on a Voice Recording, to which I have a copy of.

This voice recording is the property of the VFW, as it was recorded by a VFW Member, during VFW Business.

I ask this from the National Level, only after following the proper chain of Command. This request has been made at the District Level, with the District Adjutants full support, and no incident report was initiated and no investigation, based upon “reasonable grounds”, was done by the District Commander. No communication whether verbal or stationary was completed by the District, with full objections from the District Adjutant.

I contacted PA State Adjutant, who informed me, that an investigation was ordered, yet no-one has contacted me, or any of the witnesses, including the District Adjutant who is a direct witness to these knowingly false accusations by Commander XXXXXXXX.

I have requested from the State VFW:
1. a copy of Post 9788 by-laws
2. a copy of the attendees names from the District meeting
3. a formal investigation be initiated

All requests were denied, as the State VFW responded that these charges are a District/ Post Level Incident.

If you like, I will send all correspondence I have, including the letters of request to the District Commanders and State Adjutant/ State Commander.

The voice recording alone should be “reasonable grounds” for a full investigation, which isn’t being done.

I could use some help in restoring my faith in the VFW,

• Tweet

[USAFAirdale]

@ dnkldorf,

Your letter to Kevin looked pretty good.  This is STILL in-fact a Post/Department issue. While you made no progress at the Post level or Department, you appear to be within your rights to forward to National.

But unfortunately, you have admittedly engaged a civil attorney regarding VFW matters and made that clear in your letter to National.  Look at Sec 902 of the National By-Laws....

"Divulging any of the private business of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States with the intent or effect of embarrassing the Veterans of Foreign Wars or members thereof."

This can also apply to lawsuits and civil cases regarding the VFW.  Having done so, may result in a request for permanent cancellation of your membership by National from our great organization.

• Tweet

[tstruwe]

Dnkldorf, 

I am curious; did you sign a Member Declaration and/or fill out the Membership Application when you were transferred?

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

Yes sir I did, at the new post I transferred to.

• Tweet

[tstruwe]

Yes sir I did, at the new post I transferred to.

Thanks for the response.  I was "digesting" the proposals for changes to the by-laws and MOP when I remembered this thread and the proposed change to the Member Declaration was in front of me.  I thought if it was an "unwilling" tranfer involved, there may be a course of action you might persue along that line.

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

Hi Guys and gals,
Here's an update, we had the hearing in court yesterday.

The Post commander took the stand and under oath, claims he never took my membership away, not even my social membership.
When confronted by the letter that the post sent me, terminating my social membership and stripping me of and privileges to the post, he said he didn't remember this letter. When page two was shown to him, with his signature at the bottom, he testified he wasn't authorized to send that letter.

He really stumbled badly, and told the court he based his opinion of me, and my punishment, strictly on rumors he had heard. He testified he had no first hand knowledge of these rumors, and no one has ever talked to me, or disciplined me in any way, for speaking about VFW issues, to others outside the VFW.

So, how do I go about handling this. I emailed the State VFW Advocate, and the National VFW (same guy from earlier post) and the District Adjutant the particulars a couple of hours ago.

Should I type another letter and send it certified to all parties?

FWIW, I sent the State Advocate the same letter I sent to national, on July 12. I haven't received a response as of yet. I'm sure I will receive something on the 30th day.

So in short, how should I proceed? How would you direct your troops in this matter.  Any information is greatly appreciated.

The manual doesn't cover on how to handle relative information, in addition to a complaint in progress?

• Tweet

[Chris Weber 5468]

A few thoughts on this;
1- Since legal proceedings are in progress, speak not of it for now. Article 9 still applies.
2- After the proceedings, get your copies of the entire event, to include the court transcript.
3- Decide on what final resolution you want. In this thread, we only heard what happened, not what you want.
4- If not to go back to the Post involved, after the results of the legal proceedings, consider you had your say and lay it down and move on (for the good of the Order).
5- I would advise not going back to the Post (Regain Membership There). There will be a tremendous amount of resentment and hostility still in the factions there. That Post is probably still highly divided.

• Tweet

[DoggyDaddy]

Here's an update, we had the hearing in court yesterday.
The Post commander took the stand and under oath, claims he never took my membership away, not even my social membership.

I assume this court is a investigative hearing by Dept VFW and not a disciplinary one  
Is it investigating you, the Commander, or all the facts regarding you
What is that Post's Social membership, is their a co$t, and who can get them.  
The VFW has stated Social memberships are illegal.

If you can retain your membership in your old Post, your presence would be stirring the pot and your efforts to be an officer would always be challenged by those you pissed off and their following. 
If you have a desire to be a Post Cmdr and show by example what can be achieved, stay at your new Post.
Think hard on it, it is your decision.

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

I assume this court is a investigative hearing by Dept VFW and not a disciplinary one  
Is it investigating you, the Commander, or all the facts regarding you

Neither. I had to sue him personally for defamation of character and slander. At this time, the State and National have done nothing, so I had too.

What is that Post's Social membership, is their a co$t, and who can get them.  
The VFW has stated Social memberships are illegal.

Anyone can get what they call a social membership. For me, a LifeTime Member, you're social membership is considered a privelage at no cost to you, under the VFW manuals rights of members.

If you can retain your membership in your old Post, your presence would be stirring the pot and your efforts to be an officer would always be challenged by those you pissed off and their following. 
If you have a desire to be a Post Cmdr and show by example what can be achieved, stay at your new Post.

Goodness no, I have no desire to be post commander, and never did. Everyone involved knew this. I don't ave the time to donate, nor do I have the patience for the crap that goes on with executives. I just like to play horseshoes and pool. I was more of like the social director for the post. I organized all the leagues, and brought new members in. My role ended there. No desire to do anything more, let alone  be in command. That ain't me.

Someone asked what I want? At first all I wanted was an aploogy to clear my name. After the lies they told, now I want the proper disipline brought uopn those in command who lied, and spread false rumors against me, for no reason other than being popular.

The commander and the QM have to go, and for their lies in court, under oath, it is time to pull cards.

• Tweet

[dnkldorf]

A few thoughts on this;
1- Since legal proceedings are in progress, speak not of it for now. Article 9 still applies.
2- After the proceedings, get your copies of the entire event, to include the court transcript.

This was in district court, and there is no court stenographer. I have plenty of witnesses of what was said. I am only asking for advise here,as I have had NO response from the District or State.

It is my intent to seek advice from fellow VFW members who can help me to properly proceed, seeing how the District and State have no responded. I am not well versed on the MOP, so I post the facts, with names removed, and ask for advise from the members here, and how to properly proceed.

• Tweet

[DoggyDaddy]

This was in district court, and there is no court stenographer.

I find it hard to believe that there is no record/transcript of the court as how would or could someone contest the findings or court procedure.  Maybe there was a tape/disc recorder or video recorder you're not aware of.

• Tweet