Life Member gets the boot and possibly slandered at District meeting

[dnkldorf]

So far this is what I have done.

(1) Wrote a letter to the District Commander  asking him to secure all audio tape recordings of the meeting where the slanderous statements were made, and secure all video recordings that the Post Commander stated he had of an incident. Initial motion on the floor made by myself and seconded by the district adjutant, asking the district to investigate Post for unreasonable and illegal termination of Life Members rights and privileges at the Post.

(2) received no written reply. No incident report was initiated, and the District Adjutant doesn't understand why. No investigation was initiated by the district, even though this happened at a district meeting.

(3) waited 1 month or so, before contacting state adjutant. He asks for all letters from witnesses and tells me after review, the state asked the district to re-investigate.
(4) no response from district or state, written or verbal. No contact was made with any witnesses, myself, or even the district adjutant, by the District Commander.
(5) contacted state adjutant after a couple months by phone, he tells me he asked the State Surgeon to investigate. Again, neither myself, the witnesses to this matter who can prove the Post Commander lied maliciously about me, nor the district adjutant were ever contacted by anyone, who was "investigating" this matter. State Adjutant informs me that the State Surgeon investigated and concludes this action was personal between myself and the Post Commander. All this time, the district adjutant has the recording of the meeting and the comments and claims made by the Post commander that evening, and NO-ONE from the district or state, asked to hear it.

I need some advise from someone who knows the Manual inside and out. So far the National VFW has told me what he did was illegal and he had no authority.

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[DoggyDaddy]

FACT - There is no statute of limitation on initiating disciplinary action in the VFW. 
Do you have documentation from National VFW who told you what he did was illegal and that he had no authority?
Does National still recognize you as a VFW Member?
Did you receive letter of notice and submit an Appeal to disciplinary action against you.
Was District Judge Advocate involved?
Did you receive letter from State Adjutant of State Surgeons findings or verbal?
Is State refusing to initiate disciplinary action against Post Cmdr?
Can State justify how business and conduct and official VFW Meeting is personal between you and Commander?

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[dnkldorf]

FACT - There is no statute of limitation on initiating disciplinary action in the VFW.  [\quote]

Thanks for info, didn't know this.

Do you have documentation from National VFW who told you what he did was illegal and that he had no authority?

No documentation from them. I have documentation of what I sent to the person that handles disiplinary action for National. We diiscussed it on the phone, while he read it, and acknowleges recieving my request for the National to be the initiating officer for form DA-1.

Does National still recognize you as a VFW Member?

Absolutely.

The VFW Post Commander gave me the boot out of the post and ordered me to transfer immediately for no reason one day, in front of a canteen full of members.

Did you receive letter of notice and submit an Appeal to disciplinary action against you.

No this was verbal, and out of the blue. I transferred out of the post in Nov, and then I received a letter from the post in Dec 6, informing me that all my privileges to the post were terminated.
In fact, any member of the post who wants to rent out the hall for occasions, can't not, if I'm invited.

Was District Judge Advocate involved?

No, only the district adjutant, who seconded the motion at the district meeting, and still has the voice recording of the meeting in which the Post Commander stood up and told lies about me.

Did you receive letter from State Adjutant of State Surgeons findings or verbal?

No letters. In fact I had to call the state adjutant who told me verbally, this was a personal matter, not a state matter.

Is State refusing to initiate disciplinary action against Post Cmdr?

As far as I can tell. All I want the state to do, is actually investigate the claim, reasonably. Contact the witnesses, listen to the tape, look at the witness statements, and come to a reasonable conclussion that the VFW Post XXXX Commander did in fact lie about me, and forced me out of the post, because of a personal vendetta he had against me.

Can State justify how business and conduct and official VFW Meeting is personal between you and Commander?

I have no clue how. I haven't visited the post for over 6 months. I walked in the door with friends, and within 2 minutes he ordered me to leave and never come back.

All this over a rumor he said he heard.

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[Chris Weber 5468]

I would initiate a counter claim against the Commander and all who supports hi actions. He clearly violated several sections on the Procedure as specified in Article 9. Not having full details,I will not advise on which paragraphs fit, once you study the Article, you will find what fits.
Be sure to type in accordance to the templates all specifications you will be charging them with. As you will be charging a Commander, and evidently the existing clique, be sure to have as much solid documentation as possibly. Witness List, any writings, full statements, anything that will support your claims.
Be advised, it could backfire and you can be charged for the claim alone.
I recommend you get in contact with your Department Judge Advocate for assistance. Evidently, there is definitely Post and possibly District bias.

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[dnkldorf]

I would initiate a counter claim against the Commander and all who supports hi actions. He clearly violated several sections on the Procedure as specified in Article 9. Not having full details,I will not advise on which paragraphs fit, once you study the Article, you will find what fits.

Chris, I did not initialy have acceess to the Manual, By-laws and Ritual. I now have the podium edition.
From what I gather from my limited knowlegde of this so far, is he committed offenses:

Section 902  (4)
Section 902  (12)- a couple times

Disregarded Section 901
and broke Rules of Order  Section 1001 (6)

This is what I have requested that the district, state, and national, look into. The form DA-1 can not be initiated by a member, or the district adjutant or even the district commander. I don't see this under Section 903.

And What is a counter claim? I haven't read that in this manual.

Be sure to type in accordance to the templates all specifications you will be charging them with. As you will be charging a Commander, and evidently the existing clique, be sure to have as much solid documentation as possibly. Witness List, any writings, full statements, anything that will support your claims.

I have all the info, including a copy of the voice recording from the VFW meeting. The problem I had, have, and currently seek advice for, is these templates.
I am not the best letter writer in the world, and this hampers me. I wish the Manual had a template for the appeal process. I "heard", if these letters you must send, are not in the proper format and do not use the exact working they require, they will be tossed aside and deemed non-compliant. This is where I am at now, I think.


 

Be advised, it could backfire and you can be charged for the claim alone.

From who, the VFW?
What, will they take my card away for standing up against a bully???   Then so be it.

I recommend you get in contact with your Department Judge Advocate for assistance. Evidently, there is definitely Post and possibly District bias.

Why doesn't the State Adjutant/State Quartermaster walk down the hallway and give this to the DJA?

This makes no sense, to me.


FWIW, here is another wrench I have to deal with.
On Oct 16,  Ordered me to transfer and never come back.
On Oct 19, was the district meeting.
On Nov 8, I transferred to another post.
On Dec 6, I received a letter from original post, terminating all privileges to the post, forever, for anything. I am not allowed there, as a guest, for any VFW related, or private function at the premises.

According to the State, On Nov 8, I lost all my rights to appealing the decision made by the post, because I transferred to another post, as ordered.

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[Chris Weber 5468]

The last Offense listed, Wrongfully bringing charges up.
This means if your charges that you bring up are dismissed, those you charge can bring charges up on you for bringing charges up on you.
Hence the need for well developed case PRIOR to submitting.

As far as Dept talking about possible cases, until they hit Official Cases, they usually will not share info. This helps prevent presumptive ideas on what is happening and gives Pausable Deniability.

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[IJK3770]

    It is sad to think that there are a lot of post commanders that think they really have that kind of power.  What is downright disgusting is the fact that District/Department/National Officers cover for them.  If National actually does any kind of investigation they just tell Department to investigate who in turn tell District to investigate and, then of course, the "Good Ol' Boy" System comes into play and nothing is done to right these wrongs.  No one, and I mean no one, has the authority to "ORDER" any one to transfer to another post and certainly not without going through the proper procedures of Article 9.
    I wish you luck in getting someone to hear your pleas but who would want to be a member of a post that has that kind of no-account leadership?  Far better to seek a post that has a positive outlook and leadership.
    It is good that you mentioned it here though because this site gets read by lots of veterans and members both new and old and maybe someone can learn from this if they get confronted by the same kind of ignorance.
Cheerily,
IJK

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[dnkldorf]

The last Offense listed, Wrongfully bringing charges up.
This means if your charges that you bring up are dismissed, those you charge can bring charges up on you for bringing charges up on you.
Hence the need for well developed case PRIOR to submitting.

I understand that he could charge me with Rules of Order 1001(6), but with the tape and accompying witness testimonies, they could never make it stick.

As far as Dept talking about possible cases, until they hit Official Cases, they usually will not share info. This helps prevent presumptive ideas on what is happening and gives Pausable Deniability.

When, through the advice of my attorney, I requested the names of those present at the district meeting so I can call them as witnesses, the State denied this request, and informed the District to not give me any information regarding this meeting that was voice recorded. When information was requested by the Post Commander, including a copy of the voice recording, he was given permission. I had to hire an attorney to get a copy as proof, and as evidence to back up my accusations.

They give one life member what he wants, when he wants it, and forces another life member to hire an attorney to receive the same information.

This is why I appealed to the National Department.

I thought members were supposed to be treated fairly, and similarly. It doesn't appear to be.

Any ideas what to do?
Start over now that a different district commander is in charge?
Keep pressuring the State and National?
File a negligence suit against the National and State VFW, for not protecting the rights of members as outlined in the National Charter?


I am lost here......

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[dnkldorf]

    It is sad to think that there are a lot of post commanders that think they really have that kind of power.  What is downright disgusting is the fact that District/Department/National Officers cover for them.  If National actually does any kind of investigation they just tell Department to investigate who in turn tell District to investigate and, then of course, the "Good Ol' Boy" System comes into play and nothing is done to right these wrongs.  No one, and I mean no one, has the authority to "ORDER" any one to transfer to another post and certainly not without going through the proper procedures of Article 9.

When no punishment is given when wrongdoing is done, what's the sense of having offenses?

    I wish you luck in getting someone to hear your pleas but who would want to be a member of a post that has that kind of no-account leadership?  Far better to seek a post that has a positive outlook and leadership.

Some one has to have the courage to stand up against Post XXXX Commander   If not me, then who?

    It is good that you mentioned it here though because this site gets read by lots of veterans and members both new and old and maybe someone can learn from this if they get confronted by the same kind of ignorance.
Cheerily,
IJK

I am seeking advice, but if this thread opens eyes for others, then I did well. It's appears to be a learning lesson for all of us.

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[dnkldorf]

Has anyone made an appeal to National Commander for an appeal?

The guy I spoke with at National, told me that because the state and district both said they "investigated" this issue, and did not respond in writing within the 30 days, it is considered "lack of response" and is apealable under this clause. I could also appeal for "unauthorized removal from post".

However, this appeal must be done in accordance with the manual, in the format the manual calls for, and with everything in the appeal letter in the format required. If not, the commander will not review it.

I have no idea what format he was talking about. I asked if regular letter format is what he was talking about, and he stated again, according to the outlines of the manual.

I thought a DA-1 was to filled out first, which I can't do, and these DA forms were the format?

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[Chris Weber 5468]

All on the form templates are in this years By Law book.
Although it takes a Post to vote to have proceedings, in your case as it is against a Post Cdr, and District seems to go with the Post, fully prepare your case and present to the Department during their Council of Administration Meeting. Get with the Dept Judge Advocate prior and they may start without having it on the floor. (Advised) But you must have the entire packet fully prepared. AND KEEP A COMPLETE COPY, actually, give them a copy and you keep original. No satisfaction there, go higher.

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[USAFAirdale]

@dnkldorf:

Some of this doesn't pass the smell test.

The Post Commander gave me the boot out of the post and ordered me to transfer immediately for no reason one day, in front of a canteen full of members.

The Post Commander has no authority under the Manual of Procedure, Sec. 218 to ban a member 'forever' and 'order them to transfer to another Post'

No incident report was initiated

If your unmentioned incident was severe enough for a Post Officer or Bartender to ask you to leave immediately, it SHOULD have been written up and referred to the Post House Cmte and they SHOULD have notified you by Certified mail of the specific charges and their intent to review and make a recommendation for punishment.  The letter SHOULD have advised you of the right to appear, make a written statement and even provide witness on your behalf.

In addition to the Podium edition, lovingly referred to as "The Book", you may wish to obtain copies of the Canteen Rules and Post By-laws as well.

Sorry to say, your issue had NO business being brought up at District.  It was a Post issue.  It should have been investigated and handled at the Post.  If you don't like the outcome, THEN you have the right of appeal.

You can write a letter to the Post Adjutant requesting it be read ALOUD to the General Membership asking for an explanation of the ejection and by what authority in the By-laws or Manual of Procedure. Send it RETURN-RECEIPT-REQUESTED so you have proof.

As for "bringing up the Commander on charges" - That is your option.  Since it deals with the Commander, it can go DIRECTLY to your Department as District has nothing to do with it.

If you reference the National By-Laws, Sec. 902, 12, Knowingly providing false information or statements in connection with the initiation of charges against another member against your Post Commander can bring counter-charges and if it gets to National it could get you banned for life.  Be very sure and have documentation!

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[dnkldorf]

@dnkldorf:

Some of this doesn't pass the smell test.

The Post Commander gave me the boot out of the post and ordered me to transfer immediately for no reason one day, in front of a canteen full of members.

The Post Commander has no authority under the Manual of Procedure, Sec. 218 to ban a member 'forever' and 'order them to transfer to another Post'

It happened, I have witnesses who wrote letters to the State Adjutant, that this happened, and I did not say one word, before he banned him and told me never to come back. The district and the State have the letters. Neither the state or the district bothered to contact them for authenticity.

No incident report was initiated

If your unmentioned incident was severe enough for a Post Officer or Bartender to ask you to leave immediately, it SHOULD have been written up and referred to the Post House Cmte and they SHOULD have notified you by Certified mail of the specific charges and their intent to review and make a recommendation for punishment.  The letter SHOULD have advised you of the right to appear, make a written statement and even provide witness on your behalf.

That's my beef too. If I wasn't there for 6 months, and they decided to throw me out for some reason, I should of gotten a letter in the mail notifying me of their intentions. The Post commander, who became Post Commander while I was away, was hell bent on throwing me out, so he waited until the day I showed and and did it in front of a canteen full of patrons. It is his way of letting everyone know he was in charge now.
If he can't do this, why doesn't the State investigate the claims. Listen to the tapes, talk to the witnesses, read the letters, and have a hearing. 

In addition to the Podium edition, lovingly referred to as "The Book", you may wish to obtain copies of the Canteen Rules and Post By-laws as well.

Canteen rules and By-laws of the post were requested by me, to the state adjutant. I also requested copies of the voice recording and names and ranks of those present at the meeting.

All requests were denied.
I had to hire an attorney, file a civil suit against the Post Commander and the post, just to obtain a copy of the tape, that proves he lied.

Sorry to say, your issue had NO business being brought up at District.  It was a Post issue.  It should have been investigated and handled at the Post.  If you don't like the outcome, THEN you have the right of appeal.

When this happened, I contacted the District Adjutant. Under his direction, this was brought up at the District Meeting. When the District failed to intervene in this matter of abuse of power at the post, the District Adjutant advised me to contact the state adjutant about the matter.

You can write a letter to the Post Adjutant requesting it be read ALOUD to the General Membership asking for an explanation of the ejection and by what authority in the By-laws or Manual of Procedure. Send it RETURN-RECEIPT-REQUESTED so you have proof.

Ther is no Home Association at the Post. The Veteran( social memeber) that ran it, and everyone else involved on the Home Association quit. The Canteen is being run by the Post. There is no Post Adjutant, and the general membership you speak of consists of 4 people. The C, SR VC, JR VC, and Quatermaster/Bar manager.

As for "bringing up the Commander on charges" - That is your option.  Since it deals with the Commander, it can go DIRECTLY to your Department as District has nothing to do with it.

I am just following what the District Adjutant tells me, I don't know this book very well and am working my way through it.

If you reference the National By-Laws, Sec. 902, 12, Knowingly providing false information or statements in connection with the initiation of charges against another member against your Post Commander can bring counter-charges and if it gets to National it could get you banned for life.  Be very sure and have documentation!

Like I said, I have plenty of proof. He has already admitted to lying about having video equipment, twice. Both time to my lawyer on the civil side. It's all on tape.


Any tips on what to do?

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[dnkldorf]

Add, I have no rights to appeal anything once I transferred to another post.

As I was told by the state. They tell me after the fact, I shouldn't of transferred.

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[Chris Weber 5468]

Add, I have no rights to appeal anything once I transferred to another post.

As I was told by the state. They tell me after the fact, I shouldn't of transferred.

Then, what I would do is print out this entire topic and hand it to the Dept Officers who did not offer help and ask them why if all of us can see the glaring faults in the entire process here, why did they did not see it especially since we did not see as much intel here. With the limited info, I see many Post Officers and District Officers culpable here.

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